Eton

lanternhall
Posts: 325
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Re: Eton

Post by lanternhall » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:17 pm

We will have Boris as next p.m. because a handful of Tory party members will vote him in. Democracy at it's best.

Pip@B
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Location: more remote than Nobby's world
Re: Eton

Post by Pip@B » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:49 am

lanternhall wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:17 pm
We will have Boris as next p.m. because a handful of Tory party members will vote him in. Democracy at it's best.
Well,our 'Democratic' MP's could vote a law in to change that.

Shotto
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Location: Alberts town
Re: Eton

Post by Shotto » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:03 am

Would these be the same MPs who vote on their own above inflation pay awards, advised by the 'independent' pay review body?

Our parliament may be the mother of democracy's, but it doesn't stop the rife nepotism and self interest among its members!

Mytshot
Posts: 74
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Location: Mytchett
Re: Eton

Post by Mytshot » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:25 am

Shotto wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:03 am
Would these be the same MPs who vote on their own above inflation pay awards, advised by the 'independent' pay review body?

Our parliament may be the mother of democracy's, but it doesn't stop the rife nepotism and self interest among its members!
But I thought that it was the EU that was undemocratic?

Richard Petty
Posts: 401
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Location: Farnborough
Re: Eton

Post by Richard Petty » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:07 am

lanternhall wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:17 pm
We will have Boris as next p.m. because a handful of Tory party members will vote him in. Democracy at it's best.
I agree its not ideal and the same situation occurred when Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair but to be honest I am not sure of how else you could do it, you cant go to the country every time a party wants to change its leader.

All the parties elect their leader the same way so the argument would be the same if it was Labour in power or the Lib Dems.

I think what we have to remember is that of course in this country we elect a party to govern rather than say the USA or even closer to home France where they elect a president

Cph.shots
Posts: 226
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Re: Eton

Post by Cph.shots » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:20 am

Richard Petty wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:07 am
lanternhall wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:17 pm
We will have Boris as next p.m. because a handful of Tory party members will vote him in. Democracy at it's best.
I agree its not ideal and the same situation occurred when Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair but to be honest I am not sure of how else you could do it, you cant go to the country every time a party wants to change its leader.

All the parties elect their leader the same way so the argument would be the same if it was Labour in power or the Lib Dems.

I think what we have to remember is that of course in this country we elect a party to govern rather than say the USA or even closer to home France where they elect a president
That's not quite correct Richard. Labour sank the price of membership drastically allowing lots more people to have a say in the next leader and thankfully, many Tories were encouraged to join Labour and vote JC. (Strangely, it's ok for tories to infiltrate Labour but not militant Tendancy).
Now the tories terrified of him, have to chuckle.

Dom Sterlings Left Leg
Posts: 165
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Re: Eton

Post by Dom Sterlings Left Leg » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:29 am

We should all be terrified of him, but hes just a useful idiot. The real danger lies with that real nasty bit of work that would be chancellor

Norwich Nick
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Location: Wymondham, Norfolk
Re: Eton

Post by Norwich Nick » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:30 am

Richard Petty wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:07 am
lanternhall wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:17 pm
We will have Boris as next p.m. because a handful of Tory party members will vote him in. Democracy at it's best.
I agree its not ideal and the same situation occurred when Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair but to be honest I am not sure of how else you could do it, you cant go to the country every time a party wants to change its leader.

All the parties elect their leader the same way so the argument would be the same if it was Labour in power or the Lib Dems.

I think what we have to remember is that of course in this country we elect a party to govern rather than say the USA or even closer to home France where they elect a president
All of which is completely correct, but one of the candidates for the Conservative party leadership was loudly critical of the system saying this in 2007:

“It’s the arrogance. It’s the contempt. That’s what gets me. It’s Gordon Brown’s apparent belief that he can just trample on the democratic will of the British people. It’s at moments like this that I think the political world has gone mad, and I am alone in detecting the gigantic fraud."

I leave others to work out which of the candidates it might have been :wink:

Richard Petty
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Location: Farnborough
Re: Eton

Post by Richard Petty » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:03 am

You make a good point Cph Labour party membership is very cheap but the question is does that constitute increased democracy or actually could it be interpreted as the opposite. The Left wing of the party conned Ed Milliband into passing the new rules so that they could use that low price to increase their membership of particular demographics, the hard left made up of the very young, the very poor and the more anti establishment types. The more sensible elements in the party warned him of the dangers that this could create but he didn't listen. You can join Labour at 14 years old and as far as I can see looking at their party rules they can vote in a leadership contest, how crazy is that.

The other serious error they made was to allow new members to have a vote when a leadership election was already announced, this goes against all common sense and was bound to lead to a skewed result. As you say it was also alleged that some conservative supporters joined Labour to vote for Corbyn, whether its true that any significant number did or not will never be known but if this did happen then it is the revised Labour membership policy that was to blame. Your point about being terrified of Corbyn is sort of true though most conservatives are relieved that he is still there, I will be the first to admit that with the mess that the Government has made of the whole Brexit situation since 2016 if Labour had a strong electable leader and leadership team then they would be in power by now. Although I may not agree with their politics Labour MP's like Tom Watson, Keir Starmer, Hillary Benn, Yvette Cooper, Angela Eagle etc I have great respect for as politicians

By the way I would also add that its not just the Conservatives who are terrified of Corbyn becoming Prime minister its also a vast swathe of the Labour party, however I don't think he ever will be PM even if Labour come to power because the moderates in the party are beginning to circle round him now and are closing in, he will be replaced before he ever becomes PM.

In terms of normal recruitment of members in actual fact when you look at all the party memberships none of them are that much if your someone who is really interested in politics and want to be involved. Labour is £3.00. Lib Dems can be £12 though they encourage you to pay £72 and the Conservatives is £25 a year.
Last edited by Richard Petty on Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Richard Petty
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Location: Farnborough
Re: Eton

Post by Richard Petty » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:04 am

Dom Sterlings Left Leg wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:29 am
We should all be terrified of him, but hes just a useful idiot. The real danger lies with that real nasty bit of work that would be chancellor
Now that's a very good observation

Ian M
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Location: 5 miles from Chepstow, Monmouthshire
Re: Eton

Post by Ian M » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:13 am

lanternhall wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:17 pm
We will have Boris as next p.m. because a handful of Tory party members will vote him in. Democracy at it's best.

Party Members voting who they want as their Party Leader?? Crikey, what an outrage!

...it's the same regardless of who in in power.... so the issue is at what point should that be ratified by a GE. (Bit like the Labour lot who chnaged Party, but refused to call Bye Election)

Or doesnt that count either?

Richard Petty
Posts: 401
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:12 pm
Location: Farnborough
Re: Eton

Post by Richard Petty » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:34 am

Ian M wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:13 am
lanternhall wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:17 pm
We will have Boris as next p.m. because a handful of Tory party members will vote him in. Democracy at it's best.

Party Members voting who they want as their Party Leader?? Crikey, what an outrage!

...it's the same regardless of who in in power.... so the issue is at what point should that be ratified by a GE. (Bit like the Labour lot who chnaged Party, but refused to call Bye Election)

Or doesnt that count either?
100% agree with you there. Anyone who changes party should trigger a By Election because they are no longer representing their constituents on the manifesto that that they were elected on.

Cph.shots
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:44 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Re: Eton

Post by Cph.shots » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:59 am

Richard Petty wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:04 am
Dom Sterlings Left Leg wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:29 am
We should all be terrified of him, but hes just a useful idiot. The real danger lies with that real nasty bit of work that would be chancellor
Now that's a very good observation
It's not an "observation", it's a blinkered opinion courtesy of the daily mail.

Cph.shots
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:44 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Re: Eton

Post by Cph.shots » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:02 am

Party Members voting who they want as their Party Leader?? Crikey, what an outrage!

...it's the same regardless of who in in power.... so the issue is at what point should that be ratified by a GE. (Bit like the Labour lot who chnaged Party, but refused to call Bye Election)

Or doesnt that count either?
[/quote]

100% agree with you there. Anyone who changes party should trigger a By Election because they are no longer representing their constituents on the manifesto that that they were elected on.
[/quote]

You also seem to have the blinkers on today Richard, I seem to remember a few tories joining the trecherous labour ones............or don't they count?

Cph.shots
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:44 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Re: Eton

Post by Cph.shots » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:08 am

Richard Petty wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:03 am
You make a good point Cph Labour party membership is very cheap but the question is does that constitute increased democracy or actually could it be interpreted as the opposite. The Left wing of the party conned Ed Milliband into passing the new rules so that they could use that low price to increase their membership of particular demographics, the hard left made up of the very young, the very poor and the more anti establishment types. The more sensible elements in the party warned him of the dangers that this could create but he didn't listen. You can join Labour at 14 years old and as far as I can see looking at their party rules they can vote in a leadership contest, how crazy is that.

The other serious error they made was to allow new members to have a vote when a leadership election was already announced, this goes against all common sense and was bound to lead to a skewed result. As you say it was also alleged that some conservative supporters joined Labour to vote for Corbyn, whether its true that any significant number did or not will never be known but if this did happen then it is the revised Labour membership policy that was to blame. Your point about being terrified of Corbyn is sort of true though most conservatives are relieved that he is still there, I will be the first to admit that with the mess that the Government has made of the whole Brexit situation since 2016 if Labour had a strong electable leader and leadership team then they would be in power by now. Although I may not agree with their politics Labour MP's like Tom Watson, Keir Starmer, Hillary Benn, Yvette Cooper, Angela Eagle etc I have great respect for as politicians

By the way I would also add that its not just the Conservatives who are terrified of Corbyn becoming Prime minister its also a vast swathe of the Labour party, however I don't think he ever will be PM even if Labour come to power because the moderates in the party are beginning to circle round him now and are closing in, he will be replaced before he ever becomes PM.

In terms of normal recruitment of members in actual fact when you look at all the party memberships none of them are that much if your someone who is really interested in politics and want to be involved. Labour is £3.00. Lib Dems can be £12 though they encourage you to pay £72 and the Conservatives is £25 a year.

Sounds a bit like you think there should be some kind of income/standard of education threshold for having the right to vote?
A tad old fashioned don't you think? Would maybe a better place if it was only middle class, white males that were allowed to vote.
Ah, for the good old days!


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