Hillsborough

Post Reply
steveshot
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:41 pm
Hillsborough

Post by steveshot » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:52 pm

Match a commander David Duckenfied has just been found not guilty of gross negligence manslaughter. This was a terrible tragedy and now I guess we won’t ever know the whole story and who the blame lies with.

Lazio
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:42 pm
Re: Hillsborough

Post by Lazio » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:31 pm

Hope the witch hunt is over now.

Anon E Mouse
Posts: 1589
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:29 pm
Re: Hillsborough

Post by Anon E Mouse » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:46 pm

Surely not one person was to blame.
Terrible tragedy never the less. We should always remember and learn.

bordon shot
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:13 pm
Re: Hillsborough

Post by bordon shot » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:59 pm

He was a sacrificial lamb in an attempt by Government to put a lid on it.

Things were very different in the 80’s with regards to crowd control, a point made to me back then by a senior manager in the fire brigade pointed out that where they would look at how to get people out, the police objective was to crowd control during the hooligan era, therefore they would look at penning the crowd in.

As Mr Mouse has said, to hold one man accountable for this tragedy with the benefit of hindsight, looks very unfair.

steveshot
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:41 pm
Re: Hillsborough

Post by steveshot » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:12 pm

Anon E Mouse wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:46 pm
Surely not one person was to blame.
Terrible tragedy never the less. We should always remember and learn.
I must be honest I don’t know what I’d be thinking if I knew somebody that was killed, but I heard on tv some of the ground wasn’t safe and on that basis I don’t know the answer. Also TV that this was Duckenfields first game being in charge, on that basis I wonder what level of training was given to the police in those days, as now 30 years on event handling has probably changed considerably.
I think it’s also hard to lay all the blame on one person fie such a terrible tragedy.

lowerbourneshot
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:29 pm
Location: The Ex Legion now Lower Bourne Social Club
Re: Hillsborough

Post by lowerbourneshot » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:02 pm

Death traps 2 disasters in 85 still fans were treated like **** in decaying grounds up and even after Hillsborough shocking

supershots
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:08 am
Location: Frimley green
Re: Hillsborough

Post by supershots » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:49 pm

It still does not get away from the fact the problem was caused by thousands of scouse gits trying to get in without tickets.
If there had been no "extra" fans the problem would never have arisen. When will we see some of the so called "perfect" fans
bought into court and charged, would loved to have seen the look on that dim scouse women who is heading this up being asked why she is
not going after the problem fans as well as the coppers?

80fc
Posts: 206
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 12:20 pm
Re: Hillsborough

Post by 80fc » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:29 pm

supershots wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:49 pm
It still does not get away from the fact the problem was caused by thousands of scouse gits trying to get in without tickets.
If there had been no "extra" fans the problem would never have arisen. When will we see some of the so called "perfect" fans
bought into court and charged, would loved to have seen the look on that dim scouse women who is heading this up being asked why she is
not going after the problem fans as well as the coppers?
I think you need to have a bit of think my friend

Ancient Shot
Posts: 736
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:30 pm
Re: Hillsborough

Post by Ancient Shot » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:32 pm

Sun reader by any chance?

Localshot
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:31 am
Re: Hillsborough

Post by Localshot » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:37 pm

supershots wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:49 pm
It still does not get away from the fact the problem was caused by thousands of scouse gits trying to get in without tickets.
If there had been no "extra" fans the problem would never have arisen. When will we see some of the so called "perfect" fans
bought into court and charged, would loved to have seen the look on that dim scouse women who is heading this up being asked why she is
not going after the problem fans as well as the coppers?
I did expect better of you but having seen some of your more recent posts perhaps not!

Richard Petty
Posts: 965
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:12 pm
Location: Farnborough
Re: Hillsborough

Post by Richard Petty » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:00 am

supershots wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:49 pm
It still does not get away from the fact the problem was caused by thousands of scouse gits trying to get in without tickets.
If there had been no "extra" fans the problem would never have arisen. When will we see some of the so called "perfect" fans
bought into court and charged, would loved to have seen the look on that dim scouse women who is heading this up being asked why she is
not going after the problem fans as well as the coppers?
Sorry supershots not a nice comment to make and completely inaccurate, those accusations were dismissed years ago, the fans were never to blame.

To put it in perspective some years later at an FA cup game a league club (at home) was playing a non league club and underestimated the number of supporters that the non league club would bring despite receiving advice to the contrary. On the day the terracing for the away fans was too small and as it got to kick off there was a surge of fans trying to get onto the terracing which began to crush the fans at the front. Seeing what was happening the away teams chairman came onto the pitch and got the referee to stop the game while fans were helped over the barrier. The police then decided to move some home supporters to create an additional area for the away fans, the gates were opened and the fans came in without having to buy tickets.

Do you see the similarity there on a smaller scale between what happened at Hillsborough and what happened in this other cup game, well I can assure you that at the second game not one fan was trying to get in without a ticket or cause any trouble or had any idea of what the consequence was of pushing to try and get to see the game.

How do I know that you might ask, well I know because I was there on that terrace because the game I am referring to was Exeter vs Aldershot. We were lucky that day, thanks to an intervention by Karl Prentice (our chairman at the time) and the quick reactions of the police to relieve the pressure points no one got hurt but it was a narrow escape from tragedy.

I am actually pleased though that Duckenfield has been found not guilty because it wasn't the actions of one man that caused those deaths it was a combination of bad design, the fencing in of fans and the practices of containment that were the preferred methods of control at that time. Yes he made a mistake but it was a mistake that his training encouraged, its only in hindsight that it can be seen to be the wrong solution. The other thing which is perhaps a little controversial is that no one considers how his life may have been affected by what he saw and the knowledge of the part he played in it. I knew someone who ran someone over and killed them, it was the pedestrians fault 100% and there was never even a court case but the driver never recovered, he could never drive again and had recurring nightmares and for all I know may still be having them. The victims are not always just the ones who are lost or the bereaved but sometimes the ones who play their part in what went wrong.
Last edited by Richard Petty on Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

AMJS007
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:30 pm
Re: Hillsborough

Post by AMJS007 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:48 am

Richard Petty wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:00 am
supershots wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:49 pm
It still does not get away from the fact the problem was caused by thousands of scouse gits trying to get in without tickets.
If there had been no "extra" fans the problem would never have arisen. When will we see some of the so called "perfect" fans
bought into court and charged, would loved to have seen the look on that dim scouse women who is heading this up being asked why she is
not going after the problem fans as well as the coppers?
Sorry supershots not a nice comment to make and completely inaccurate, those theories were dismissed years ago.

To put it in perspective some years later at an FA cup game a league club (at home) was playing a non league club and underestimated the number of supporters that the non league club would bring despite receiving advice to the contrary. On the day the terracing for the away fans was too small and as it got to kick off there was a surge of fans trying to get onto the terracing which began to crush the fans at the front. Seeing what was happening the away teams chairman came onto the pitch and got the referee to stop the game while fans were helped over the barrier.

Do you see the similarity there on a smaller scale between what happened at Hillsborough and what happened in this other cup game, well I can assure you that at the second game not one fan was trying to get in without a ticket or cause any trouble or had any idea of what the consequence was of pushing to try and get to see the game.

How do I know that you might ask, well I know because I was there on that terrace because the game I am referring to was Exeter vs Aldershot. We were lucky that day, thanks to an intervention by Karl Prentice (our chairman at the time) and the quick reactions of the police to relieve the pressure points no one got hurt but it was a narrow escape from tragedy.

I am actually pleased though that Duckenfield has been found not guilty because it wasn't the actions of one man that caused those deaths it was a combination of bad design, the fencing in of fans and the practices of containment that were the preferred methods of control at that time. Yes he made a mistake but it was a mistake that his training encouraged, its only in hindsight that it can be seen to be the wrong solution. The other thing which is perhaps a little controversial is that no one considers how his life may have been affected by what he saw and the knowledge of the part he played in it. I knew someone who ran someone over and killed them, it was the pedestrians fault 100% and there was never even a court case but the driver never recovered, he could never drive again and had recurring nightmares and for all I know may still be having them. The victims are not always just the ones who are lost or the bereaved but sometimes the ones who play their part in what went wrong.
It was a supporter that got onto the pitch to alert the ref at Exeter I think.

With regards to Hillsborough

The 96 Liverpool fans were victims of a tragic event but there is no getting away from the fact that thousands of Liverpool fans caused an issue outside the ground turning up late without tickets and forcing the police decision to open the gates in turn leading to the tragic deaths of fans that arrived early and with tickets. I feel sorry for all the families who lost loved ones but to solely blame the police is not justified as we know.The decision today is the correct one.

Richard Petty
Posts: 965
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:12 pm
Location: Farnborough
Re: Hillsborough

Post by Richard Petty » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:05 am

AMJS007 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:48 am
Richard Petty wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:00 am
It was a supporter that got onto the pitch to alert the ref at Exeter I think.

With regards to Hillsborough

The 96 Liverpool fans were victims of a tragic event but there is no getting away from the fact that thousands of Liverpool fans caused an issue outside the ground turning up late without tickets and forcing the police decision to open the gates in turn leading to the tragic deaths of fans that arrived early and with tickets. I feel sorry for all the families who lost loved ones but to solely blame the police is not justified as we know.The decision today is the correct one.
You could be right about the supporter, for some reason I am sure I can still see in my mind Karl Prentice walking out onto the pitch, perhaps the game had already stopped.

I do take your point about the fans outside the ground they were a major contributory factor but to me that doesn't make them in any way responsible because had they been left outside then yes there would have been trouble but it would not have directly caused the deaths of those inside.

Glad we agree about the decision today, I did feel I was rather sticking my neck over the parapet saying I thought it was right so its reassuring to know at least one person agrees with me.

Me Mums a Shot
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:31 am
Re: Hillsborough

Post by Me Mums a Shot » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:38 am

I agree with you as well Richard.

Whilst i feel so sorry for those families in a court of law he has been proven not guilty.

Whilst that sounds heartless it is not meant to be - he did make mistakes but were they intentional criminal ones?! That I think is what the jury were asked.

To go to a football match and not come home puts arguing about who films videos at a game of football into perspective me thinks.

Lazio
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:42 pm
Re: Hillsborough

Post by Lazio » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:34 am

I heard a caller on LBC last night and for me he summed it up perfectly. In the 70s and 80s football fans were often seen as second class citizens by much of the general public, often with good cause as they had seen serious disorder by English fans all over Europe and at home. These factors precipitated the measures that were put in place to deal with them,herding, fencing etc, ultimately contributing the events at Hillsborough and even to an extent Bradford.
I can understand the anger of the families, but feel that they should look at the whole scenario including their own followers at Heysel, not just those on the front line who made errors.


Post Reply